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Sometimes, it’s best to get back to the basics. Whether you are talking business or just general human interaction, it’s easy to get caught up in the whirlwind of overthinking things when really all you need to do is keep it simple.
Ellen Bennett knows this more than most, and she’s built her company, Hedley & Bennett into an undeniable success by sticking to that principle. Hedley & Bennett produces high-quality kitchen wear that has been featured in more than 4,000 restaurants and cafes, adopted by celebrity chefs like Martha Stewart and David Chang, and is used by hundreds of thousands of home chefs every day. But the story started much more modestly. Ellen began with a true grassroots approach, selling aprons out of her Mini Cooper, talking to and pitching every chef she knew, and working her connections to keep growing her business.
On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Ellen shares the story of how she hustled to build Hedley & Bennett and all of the early struggles she had to work through to keep the train rolling. She gives advice to any young company dealing with production or shipping mishaps, and she explains how you can go about expanding through creative and authentic collaborations. Plus, she explains what it took to shift the company from exclusively selling B2B to now selling more than 80% DTC. Ellen brought a level of energy and ambition to the interview that didn’t disappoint, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
Main Takeaways:
- Howdy, Partner: One way to expand your product line without taking on the entire risk and expense of production, testing, etc., is to form a partnership with companies that already make products you are interested in selling. By partnering with Madewell and Richer Poorer socks, Hedley & Bennet was able to expand its product line and grow its audience and customer base without having to add to or adjust the supply chain.
- Pick Up The Phone: As a young company, any mistake could be a dagger to the heart. But, things happen and sometimes you have to swallow the cost of a mistake for the overall good of the business. The best way to do that is to be honest, take responsibility, and do it one-to-one. Make the hard phone call instead of hiding behind an email. Your customer might be upset that their order was messed up, but you will build respect and trust when you show them you’re making a personal effort to make it right.
- From B2B to DTC: It may seem obvious, but moving from almost exclusively selling B2B to having 80% of your products sold DTC is a massive shift. Tune in to hear what that looked like for Hedley & Bennett, and advice for any company considering this move.
For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.
Key Quotes:
“It began with this idea of just make a good apron for the restaurant world, make the perfect apron. And it quickly evolved into this giant community of chefs that also felt like they needed that same product. And it was just me out of my house, out of my mini Cooper, running to farmer’s markets, talking to chefs, really doing a very grassroots marketing approach to everything because frankly, I didn’t have any investors. I didn’t have any outside capital. I had me, myself and I against the world and my product.”
“One of the things that I’ve always championed within our organization is never treating people like a transaction. So when you are being friends with people and you actually care about them, and you’re not just caring about making that sale, people are willing and much more willing to help you. And also if you are excited about what you’re doing and you genuinely are there because you’re trying to help in some capacity, I’ve just found that everyone is willing to get on that bandwagon.”
“I had some orders go south very frequently at the beginning, and they were very expensive as a tiny, small business…. And we had to just suck it up and make it right. I refunded part of it. I overnighted stuff. I covered the cost of it. I called the assistant and spoke to her personally and said, ‘I’m so sorry. This is what occurred. It’s on us. We really messed up and we’re going to make it right.’ And just owning your mistakes. Especially when you’re a small business, hiding behind emails [won’t work] pick up the phone. There’s nothing like human contact, especially when things go south. Do not try and resolve a problem or a deeply rooted issue on an email, have the balls to call the person and fix it.”
“Just because what they offer you is the price that they’re offering you doesn’t mean you can’t have a conversation. It’s like, ‘Hey guys, is there anything else we can do to get this down? Are there other costs that we can adjust to bring your costs down? Is there anything we can do on our end to help mitigate some of this?’ And you find ways of being collaborative and your partners tend to say, ‘yes.’ It’s not just hard balling them and trying to squeeze a penny down, but really listening to them and listening to your needs and finding a happy medium, a solution.”
“When we first started everything was pretty much B2B. All of these restaurants that we were in, and chefs we were outfitting like that was our bread and butter. And it created a lot of great cashflow And the business was able to grow in that way. Organically though, behind the scenes, our D2C business was growing because all these people were seeing us on Food Network or Top Chef, you’ll see that little red square ampersand patch on the chest and say, ‘What is that? Oh, my favorite chef is wearing it, I want to wear it.’ So we were building this online presence without even meaning to. And I wanted to make a product that resonated with all of our newer customers online and make something special for our restaurant customers. So I thought collaborations, that’s the best way to do it.”
“Every single one of those collaborations brought us new eyeballs, it brought us new community and it brought something really fun to talk about. And we never did it with anyone we didn’t actually believe was a good partnership.”
“When we did our collab with Madewell, we created the aprons, we manufactured them and they manufactured all of the apparel. So we did a jumpsuit and shirts and bandanas and a few other items. So things like a 12-piece collection and all the aprons were made by us. The designs came from their design team, combined with our input and edits. And the way we did it was we brought the function and the core base. And then they brought the design elements that they wanted to plug in from the world of Madewell, and those are the best collaborations, when you find somebody that does something that you don’t do and vice versa.”
“In the early days of Hedley & Bennett, we did so many partnerships with so many people. And we said yes to everything because we were learning, we were exploring, we were trying things. And I found that a lot of times we had the chutzpah and initiative to make it work and sometimes the other side didn’t. And so we found that we were doing a lot of the work…. So we kissed some frogs and learned what we needed to ask. And I don’t fault anyone for it, but learning to say no is just as important to learn than to say yes. You need to be able to draw the line.”
“We’re now 80% direct-to-consumer, so it’s a dramatically different tech stack and it’s a dramatically different backend…. it used to be 50/50, and now it’s 80/20, but growth on all levels. To your point, the 80% D2C really surpassed the B2B. So we would blend everything, which was really painful. It was really hard because you had one customer service team servicing a chef who needed something for his opening and then you had Maria from Minnesota, calling in who needed a strap change on her apron. And you had two people helping both so that was a little confusing and convoluted, but we were too small to be able to do anything more and to resource it fully in a different way.”
“I believe all the yeses and nos that I’ve ever gotten have been the nicest thing that I’ve ever gotten because they’ve opened and shut different doors along the way that have forced me to be resourceful. That have forced me to experience hardship and have forced me to experience amazing feelings… I believe you got to live life and feel life and go through the ups and the downs of it to come out on the other side with that much more context. And then you have that much more to pull from.”
Mentions:
- The Hundreds
- Rifle Paper Co.
- Vans
- Madewell
- Parachute Home
- Richer Poorer
- Swag.com episode of Up Next in Commerce
- Dream First Details Later: How to Quit Overthinking and Make It Happen
- Patrick M. Lencioni books
- Dash Hudson
Bio:
Ellen Bennet is the founder and CEO of Hedley & Bennett. She has a passion for food, which led her to work in some of the best kitchens in LA, including two Michelin Star restaurants. Frustrated by the poor-quality aprons she worked with every day, Ellen was inspired to create something better, which became Hedley & Bennett. Hedley & Bennett is now worn by celebrity chefs and home cooks alike all over the world.
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Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce
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Transcript:
Ellen Bennett:
Great. Hi guys. My name is Ellen Bennett and I’m the founder and CEO of Hedley and Bennett.
Stephanie Postles:
Hey everyone. And welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder and CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Ellen Bennett, the founder and CEO of Hedley and Bennett. Ellen, welcome to the show.
Ellen Bennett:
Thanks for having me.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah, I’m very excited to have you on. You’re the first person with a outfit change that we’ve had before getting on. So it’s a good day to have a new thing occur on a podcast interview.
Ellen Bennett:
I love color and I brought a light yellow cat and I had a dark yellow hat. So I just changed to a dark yellow hat in case everyone’s wondering, what the hell is she talking about?
Stephanie Postles:
Yep. This is working for me more now. So now I’m ready to get into it. So your company looks awesome. I saw that Hedley and Bennett, you guys are creating handcrafted aprons and you’re in over 4,000 restaurants and coffee shops, which is wild and crazy. So your story seems like one that I want to go back to the early days. Like before, you’re in all these restaurants and coffee shops, how did you start? How did you even get into this industry?
Ellen Bennett:
So I used to cook professionally. I worked at a two Michelin star restaurant, hated our uniforms, and I wanted to make them better. I wanted to make people feel empowered and awesome. And you hear, oh, she has an apron company and you might think frilly, curly aprons, but I need you to stop what you’re doing right now, go to our website to hedleyandbennett.com and check it out because you’ll understand pretty immediately that we are the polar opposite of that. We are a really awesome collection of colorful, very well-made, very high quality products, which are kitchens, gear and aprons.
Ellen Bennett:
And it began with this idea of just make a good apron for the restaurant world, make the perfect apron. And it quickly evolved into this giant community of chefs that also felt like they needed that same product. And it was just me out of my house, out of my mini Cooper, running to farmer’s markets, talking to chefs, really doing a very grassroots marketing approach to everything because frankly, I didn’t have any investors. I didn’t have any outside capital. I had me, myself and I against the world and my product. So I began with that and just built off of it, reinvested every penny I made back into the business and grew it chunk by chunk brick by brick. And it took time, but I believe that the good things take time. So I’ve been happy with our journey. We are eight years in now.
Stephanie Postles:
Awesome. So for anyone who has not worked in the restaurant business, which I have but I’ve not been back in the kitchen. I was like server, bartender, shot girl, hey. What makes a bad apron and what did you hear when you’re going out and interviewing people and kind of doing that market research to create what you have today, which is an awesome, but sturdy looking apron. I saw one on your website with really cool pockets, but it was very trendy, but also look [inaudible]. How did you get there and what were you wearing before we were like, this sucks?
Ellen Bennett:
Yeah, totally. So before Hedley and Bennett was born, aprons were very much just a commodity as something you didn’t think about, you didn’t look at, it was just a very, very thin piece of material probably made out of polyester with a strap that wrapped around your neck. And that hung probably below your boobs, like really not fitting on a man or a woman or whoever. And it also had like shoe lay strings around the waist. It didn’t adjust in any way and that was it. There was nothing else to it. And what I did with Hedley and Bennett is we made it a whole world. We made it a community. We made it mean something. And from the get-go we had people like Martha Stewart and David Chang and Nancy Silverton. And if you watch any show on TV right now from Top Chef to any show on the food network you will see this little red and on the chest and that is the heavily amended apron.
Stephanie Postles:
Wow. Okay. You [inaudible] right to the crazy success story now. Now, [inaudible] how did you get in front of Martha Stewart? How did you secure all these partnerships like that, that’s crazy.
Ellen Bennett:
Believe it or not. And this is the 80 year old within me. I always say I’m like an eighty year… I’m secretly an 80 year old man, because I do things the old school way sometimes. I believe in really high quality always. And from day one we made a product that really worked and I’ve always listened to our customers deeply. Do you know what an NPS score is?
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah.
Ellen Bennett:
Yes.
Stephanie Postles:
Net Promoter Score.
Ellen Bennett:
Yes. So our NPS score is 80. And that’s very high above industry standard, which ranges in the 60 camp. And we are constantly at 80 plus. And the reason we’re in that camp is because we’ve never skimped on the quality of details. The fabrics that we use are everything from Japanese denims, to Italian chambrays to materials that you can beat up again, and again, and again, and this thing is going to last you forever. So you have the craziest chefs out there in the world wearing our products for so many years. Believe me, I got feedback throughout the years. So these kinds of guys, they just love the quality. They loved that it had a point of view and that you could have your own vibe. You didn’t just need to be wearing a white apron. Why not have yourself have an identity in the kitchen that was more than just strap a white apron on.
Stephanie Postles:
Yep. But how did you get in front of them? Did you send them free samples to try and show them quality? How did you even get in front of these top shows?
Ellen Bennett:
A lot of it was word of mouth. So one chef would take it to an event and another chef would see that little red patch on the chest and be like, “what is that?” And then they’d say, “oh, there’s a girl, her name’s Ellen.” They would call me the quote unquote apron lady. “Oh, you got to contact Ellen. She’s making awesome stuff. These were the early days of Instagram. And when I went and met with David Chang, for example, in New York, I was introduced to him by a chef I met in LA. The chef from LA was like, “if you’re ever in New York, let me know.” And I of course let him know. So I reached out before I showed up to New York and I was like, “chef, I’m coming to New York. I’m so excited to come see your spot.”
Ellen Bennett:
I was very interested in what he was doing and I happen to have aprons with me. So I obviously was going to show him when I was in New York. And he said, “yeah, come by my restaurant.” I stopped by, I showed him aprons. He bought some from me and then he’s like, “well, how else can I help you?” I was like, “you know what, I’d love to meet a few other chefs who do you know?” And he’s like, “oh, David Chang is a good friend.” Like, “can you reach out to him right now for me? I’ll come over today.” And he was like, “yeah, sure.” And so then that chef emailed David Chang. He responded in like an hour later. I was standing inside Momofuku, convincing David Chang to buy aprons from me. And David was like, “I don’t know who you are.”
Ellen Bennett:
He was really nice, but there was nothing about Hedley and Bennett that existed the way it does now in the industry. But I was so excited at the idea of getting him aprons that I was like, “all right, do you need it on consignment? Do you need net 60? What do you need? I’m going to give it to you, but I’m not walking out of here without you wearing Hedley and Bennett. Because, I promise you’re going to love it.” And I had enough conviction in my product that I knew once he actually had his team wearing it, they would love it. And sure enough, David Chang and his restaurants have worn Hedley and Bennett for six plus years now.
Stephanie Postles:
And did they buy that day when you-
Ellen Bennett:
They did. They ordered 50 aprons, custom aprons from me. And he’s like, “I don’t even know how you did that, but all right, I’m excited.” And I was like, “yay.” And then I took a picture with him, put it on Instagram. Just using what I had, honestly, it was like focused on what you have and not what you don’t have. And I was like, I have myself, I have this great product and I have a new customer. I’m going to talk about it. It was very basic, but I kept doing that again and again and again. And the flywheel just started spinning.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah. That’s such a good reminder too, about asking your current customers or your network for referrals. I think a lot of people feel awkward and uncomfortable about doing that. Especially when you make a sale to someone to then be like, and now I’m going to ask for that extra thing. But I found that usually people always say yes, like “yes, I’ll try and find someone else in my network to help you. Yes. There’s someone else that I know,” but they wouldn’t think about offering that up right from the beginning. But when you ask it’s like all these doors open, I think not enough people ask though.
Ellen Bennett:
I agree. And one of the things that I’ve always championed within our organization is never treating people like a transaction. So when you are being friends with people and you actually care about them, and you’re not just caring about making that sale, people are willing and much more willing to help you. And also if you are excited about what you’re doing and you genuinely are there because you’re trying to help in some capacity, I’ve just found that everyone is willing to get on that bandwagon. Like when that chef reached out to David Chang, he’s like “this girl she’s got hustle. She’s figuring out. She’s got this business.” They appreciate when people try. And so you just kind of want to help people that are out there going out of their comfort zones.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah. I completely agree. So how did you go about, getting back to the earlier days, like you’re not a designer, you didn’t have background in that. What was it like getting into that industry and trying to figure out, how do I get a product manufactured? How do I pivot that when I have feedback? Somethings going wrong. What did that look like? And what were some of the lessons from those early days?
Ellen Bennett:
I had some orders go south very frequently at the beginning. And they were very expensive as a tiny, small business. One of them being Bryan Voltaggio he ordered the biggest order I’d ever gotten. I think it was 150 aprons. And we had a mishap in sewing land and the sewers just didn’t get it done in time. And we were on them and we were hounding them and they had a restaurant opening. And so you can imagine delivering 150 aprons after the restaurant opens on the other side of the United States is not right. And we had to just suck it up and make it right. I refunded part of it. I overnighted stuff. I covered the cost of it. I called the assistant and spoke to her personally and said, “I’m so sorry. This is what occurred. It’s on us. We really messed up and we’re going to make it right.” And just owning your mistakes, especially when you’re a small business hiding behind emails, this is where my 80 year old man comes out, pick up the phone.
Ellen Bennett:
There’s nothing like human contact, especially when things go South. Do not try and resolve a problem or a deeply rooted issue on an email, have the balls to call the person and fix it. And people really appreciate that. For as technologically savvy as we all are, human connection will never surpass an email. I mean the other way around. So, that was a lot of what I did at the beginning when things went South. I would pick up the phone and call people and be like, “tell me what happened. How can we make this right. We’ll take care of it.” And we bid it many times where we covered costs on stuff.
Stephanie Postles:
Is it usually delays type of issues that-
Ellen Bennett:
It was delays, or there were errors on the fabric, or maybe it was a new fabric we were testing. We didn’t test because we didn’t even know to test fabrics. And so it may be a bled on their clothes. You name it, it happened. And there were times when customers absolutely were like, nope, you ruined it. And we had to go out and find other customers. But overall we were always very humble about our mistakes and just listened, fixed and course corrected pretty immediately. So if there was an issue with one type of material and we had several customers, we would proactively reach out to the other customers and say, “hey, it turns out there’s something wrong with this. We need to fix it. We’d like to recover those products. We’ll send you other ones. Let’s make it right.”
Stephanie Postles:
Yep. Got it. So how do you go about ingesting feedback now that you’re in the 4,000 plus restaurants and locations? How do you take feedback like you did in the early days, which was probably much more like, one-off where you’re like, “oh, good tip. I’m going to change it.” What are you doing now with everything coming in.
Ellen Bennett:
Right. Yeah. Back in the day I was the windshield to the business. So I could kind of take it all in every single bit. Now we have a pretty extensive set of meetings and spreadsheets from every part of the business. So our social team online is feeding information in from Instagram and TikTok and direct messages that we get. My platform at Ellen Marie Bennett is pretty front and center too. So people will reach out to me directly and say things. When things are wrong, you hear about it. So I funnel that over to our social team, and then they aggregate it all and have a weekly meeting like an interdepartmental meeting between marketing and sales and production to ensure that those things are getting changed or fixed.
Ellen Bennett:
You can put a lot of technology behind that and aggregate surveys and things of that nature too, which we do. But I’ve found that just getting the right people on a cadence of a phone call has been really helpful to ensure that our e-comm team is making corrections to the site where things are difficult for customers or our product team hears about that one trending topic where this one apron is wrinkling in a way that none of the other ones do, so then we start course correcting on that. One of our values as a company is never stop improving. So we are constantly tinkering, and fixing, and tweaking, and editing and adjusting. And because we’re also controlling the supply chain, it’s easy for us to do that. It’s not like we product one year out and then we can’t adjust it. We’re constantly adapting it.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah. That’s really great. Controlling that entire process from start to finish. As you’ve started to scale and grow, and you bring on more executives onto the team, you’ve got a CFO, have you ever felt a pull to kind of sacrifice quality here and there in the pursuit of better margins, because that seems like something a lot of businesses struggle with as they get bigger. Sometimes there’s a point where you’re like, eh, I remember the early days it used to be this and now… Have you felt any of that pull yet? And if so, how do you think about that?
Ellen Bennett:
Such a great question. Honestly, I’ve found that because we have a bigger team, we are able to scale with more infrastructure. It’s just easier. And we actually have time to negotiate and we actually have time to buy in bigger volume on raw materials. So it helps our margin in the long run. So we’ve actually been able to maintain a lot of the same suppliers we used from the get-go, but grow with them. And because I started with them with one roll of fabric, and now we’re buying tens of thousands of rolls monthly it’s a very different relationship and they really appreciate us. Because also, back to my being an 80 year old man days, I never had any debt and I always paid everybody on time. So our vendors really valued us and value us to this day, because we’re not on net 60 terms or anything with them. We pay them every month with no delays. So, that creates a lot of partnership. They want to help you because you’ve always helped them.
Stephanie Postles:
Yep [crosstalk].
Ellen Bennett:
So I’ve actually found the margin has gone up as we’ve scaled versus gone down. There was a long time there in Hedley and Bennett that we sacrificed quite a lot of margin to hit the quality that we wanted. And we did it anyway because we believe in quality first and foremost.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah. That’s awesome. And such a good point, too, of like, if you’re scaling and growing your margins should get better. You don’t always have to sacrifice on quality, but especially leaning into that relationship with your partners can really work wonders which is great.
Ellen Bennett:
Exactly. And just because somebody’s price, what they offer you is the price that they’re offering you doesn’t mean you can’t have a conversation. Just like I asked that chef do you know anybody? It’s like, hey guys, is there anything else we can do to get this down? Are there other costs that we can adjust to bring your costs down? Is there anything we can do on our end to help mitigate some of this? And you find ways of being collaborative and your partners tend to say, yes. It’s not just the hard balling them and trying to squeeze a penny down, but really listening to them and listening to your needs and finding a happy medium, a solution.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah. Awesome. So at what point did you start to think about introducing new products? When were you like now’s the time to have a new product come live?
Ellen Bennett:
Yeah. When we first started everything was pretty much B2B. So business to business and the company, all of these restaurants that we were in, and chefs we were outfitting like that was our bread and butter. And it created a lot of great cashflow because we would take a deposit at the beginning and ship the product once it was made, collect the other half. And the business was able to grow in that way. Organically though, behind the scenes, our D2C our direct consumer business was growing because all these people were seeing us on Food Network or Top Chef, you’ll see that little red square ampersand patch on the chest and say, what is that? Oh, my favorite chef is wearing, I want to wear it.
Ellen Bennett:
So we were building this like online presence without even meaning to in a way. And I wanted to make product that resonated with all of our newer customers online and make something special for our restaurant customers. So I thought collaborations, that’s the best way to do it. And that’s where I got our toes dabbled into the world of new product. And we started with I believe one of our early collaborations was with The Hundreds, which is a really cool street wear brand here in LA. Then we did something with Parachute home, we’ve since gone on to do a collaboration with Vans and Madewell. But every single one of those collaborations brought us new eyeballs, it brought us new community and it brought something really fun to talk about.
Ellen Bennett:
And we never did it with anyone we didn’t actually believe was a good partnership. It’s like when you see a brand team up with, I don’t know, they could be something totally different. And they team up with like an airline. And you’re like, what does that even mean? What are you guys doing? We never did that. It always had to be genuine. And that really helped us get into new products because we were able to test and see what people responded to. So we launched a line of chef socks with this one company called Richer Poorer and everyone was like, “chef socks. What do you even mean with that?” And, oh my God, these chefs socks to this day, we still sell them. And we have an ongoing partnership now where they make our socks.
Stephanie Postles:
What are chef socks? Is it just comfy or thicker.
Ellen Bennett:
So you could wear them. They have compression but they’re super colorful because obviously Hedley and Bennett is a really colorful fun company. And they also have fun sayings at the bottom. So it’ll say like wake up and fight or whatever. So you’ve got, put your socks on and get out there and like kick at life.
Ellen Bennett:
So, that was a way that we got to test a new product be resourceful. Because, we didn’t have to go make our own supply chain to create SOPs. And then we were able to tap into their network of community and world.
Stephanie Postles:
What does the breakout of work look like when you’re partnering with someone like Madewell, because maybe it’s not a sock company. It’s like, we’ll make the socks you target them to your audience, we’ll do our thing. What does it look like if it’s more of a big brand or like a Vans where it’s like, okay, you’ve got your designs and things like that. Like who’s doing what work?
Ellen Bennett:
Yeah. Such a good question. So when we did our collab with Madewell, we created the aprons. We manufactured them and they manufactured all of the apparel. So we did a jumpsuit and shirts and bandanas and a few other items. So things like a 12 piece collection and all the aprons were made by us. The designs came from their design team, combined with our input and edits. And the way we did it was we brought the function and the core base. And then they brought the design elements that they wanted to kind of plug in from the world of Madewell, and those are the best collaborations. When you find somebody that does something that you don’t do and vice versa.
Ellen Bennett:
So with Vans, it’s like they make shoes we don’t. We made aprons, they don’t. With Madewell we make really high pro-grade, high function product that’s really beautiful and lasts forever and they have great designs. So you bring those two together and you end up with a jumpsuit that’s made out of a beautiful stretch denim that has a towel loop on the side for towels for when you’re cooking. But its also snaps instead of buttons so you can get in and out of it because if you’re going to go pee while you’re cooking or whatever, you don’t have time to sit there and unbutton 40 buttons. So just thinking about it from a function standpoint, it really ended up being a perfect collaboration.
Stephanie Postles:
Got it. And do they feel pretty similar or is it very one-off, like very different kinds of relationships because I’m even thinking about like how do you break up the sales or who gets what on the backend?
Ellen Bennett:
I think it’s really important when people are doing collaborations to be very open at the beginning about what your end goal is. And for Madewell we really wanted to tap into their audience and they wanted to tap into ours. So it was like, “okay, we’re going to go heavy into marketing.” I also really wanted to make a jumpsuit. We had never done work wear in that capacity. And so they were like, “great, we’ll make those products. You make the aprons, we’ll hit that consumer from a home and pro angle, but with the same product” and it was a perfect split. So you work it out based on what everybody’s needs are. And you kind of like lay out all your cards on the table. And if someone is a bigger company, typically the larger company will cover more of let’s say the marketing costs.
Ellen Bennett:
So Madewell did a lot of the photo shoot for our collaboration or when we did our launch with Vans, we did a huge party with them. We had it at our 16,000 square foot factory in LA, but then they brought people from the strokes to perform. So it is-
Stephanie Postles:
Go Vans!
Ellen Bennett:
Go Vans! I mean, music is their world. So that is how it ends up being really effective. You have to both pull in and pitch in from both sides or else it’s not really a collaboration, it’s not really a partnership. You’re inventing some false thing behind the scenes in marketing land for a good reason to talk to your audience, but everyone can smell through bullshit these days. Like if it isn’t genuine, don’t do it.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah. Have you had any partnership fails? You don’t have to say any of the names that have been like, oh, this didn’t work out and here’s maybe why or what I would avoid next time that this is why it didn’t work out well.
Ellen Bennett:
Yeah. I love that you asked me that because truthfully at the early days of Hedley and Bennett, we did so many partnerships with so many people. And we said yes to everything because we were learning, we were exploring, we were trying things. And I found that a lot of times we had the kind of chutzpah and initiative to make it work and sometimes the other side didn’t. And so we found that we were doing a lot of the work, a lot of times. Not in any of the partnerships I mentioned, but somebody would reach out and they’d say, “oh my gosh, we love your brand. We’d love to collaborate.” And next thing you know, we’re like throwing them a party and I’m like, “wait, why is our marketing department throwing a party for a brand that doesn’t even have any of their people coming in to support or help.”
Ellen Bennett:
So we kissed some frogs and learned what we needed to ask. And I don’t fault anyone for it, but learning to say no is just as important to learn than to say yes. You need to be able to draw the line. But if our team hadn’t done all those different events, I don’t know that we would have learned that. So we learned it the hard way, but sometimes experience teaches you.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah. I love that. And how long does a… I’m diving deep because I’ve not talked about partnerships a lot on the shows that’s why I’m really going in.
Ellen Bennett:
Oh, yeah. Go for it.
Stephanie Postles:
When do you start seeing the ROI kind of trail off? At what point does the excitement die down and then you kind of are like, okay onto the next partnership or how long does it normally last?
Ellen Bennett:
Oh yeah. That’s great. Let’s say it depends on how much ramp up you make to the partnership or the collaboration, and then how quickly the product sells out. So I’ll give you one example. We did a big print with a print collection with a company called Rifle Paper Company. I don’t know if you know who that is, but if you Google that you will recognize the floral print.
Ellen Bennett:
So we did a print with them and we had a 40,000 person sign up waitlist for when the product launched. And that was done three weeks before the product launched. And so we were able to pull in all these people top of the funnel and bring them in and have them be excited about it. And we were hitting them with different emails, talking about the product and when it was going to land. And then once the product landed, it was pretty exciting for I’d say like about a month, it was that time. And that product sold very well and drove a lot of traffic for the entire period it was not sold out. So we had it up, I think for two and a half months. And this was three years ago.
Ellen Bennett:
Now everything feels so accelerated. It’s like, you get a product up, it’s cool. Then something happens. And then the United States implodes in some way. And then we’re off to the races. Talk about that. And then something happens on Reddit and then it goes over there. So I don’t know, I think the news cycle and everything else has sped up dramatically from 2017.
Ellen Bennett:
So, I’d say a good two-ish months is usually the range. And with them, we did lots of social media posts on both accounts. And so she was posting about it. We were posting about it and that helped just build the hype and momentum on it. And then once it sold out, it was gone and then people were bummed because they didn’t get it. So when we brought it back, like almost a year later for a limited drop, it sold so fast. I think it was gone in a couple of weeks.
Stephanie Postles:
So I want to circle back a little bit to the B2B, to D2C transition and talk about, how did you guys think about your tech stack and your website, because when you’re doing B2B orders, they’re probably used to a different, sometimes archaic system of I’m used to logging in and making my purchase or talking to my guy at this location. How did you think about that switch? And did you really change the user interface and how customers were interacting or did you just let it go and see if they would adapt to your new D2C way of selling?
Ellen Bennett:
We have a pretty unique kind of split in our organization because you have one team managing two very, very different channels with very different customers. And when we were smaller, it was manageable and you could figure it out. But now that we’ve grown so much and that we are, we’re now 80% direct to consumer, it’s a dramatically different tech stack. It’s a dramatically different backend.
Stephanie Postles:
80% because the pie just grew bigger. You still probably have a lot of those B2B ones the pie just got bigger. Yeah. Okay.
Ellen Bennett:
That’s right. So it used to be 50/50, and now it’s 80/20, but growth on all levels. To your point, the 80% D2C really surpassed the B2B. So we would blend everything, which was really painful. It was really hard because you had one customer service team servicing a chef who needed something for his opening and then you had Maria from Minnesota, calling in who needed a strap change on her apron. And you had two people helping both so that was a little confusing and convoluted, but we were too small to be able to do anything more and to resource it fully in a different way.
Ellen Bennett:
And now that the business has expanded, we actually broke out B2B and created its own P&L. It has its own P&L, it has its own team and its own sales force that… We’ve always had a separate salesforce, but it was blended into the rest of the company now it’s fully broken out. And on the backend, we are automating it. So we’re creating a portal where our B2B customers can go log on, get the discounts and have it be a little bit more easy and automated for them.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah. So what portal are you finding success with? Because, I could see a lot of businesses wanting to go the other way. Like there’s a ton of D2C right now. And B2B is sometimes where people also, they wish to be. So what backend, what tech are you using to make that easy from a log-in perspective versus consumer?
Ellen Bennett:
We have basically cloned our site and have done a wholesale site as a V1 and are working based off of that, seeing what works and what doesn’t. I’ve also gone the polar opposite direction when we added new things on like last year, we built a brand new site from head to toe and everything was new and we tested nothing. And that was not great either. So we kind of, over-indexed on like, let’s go really basic with the B2B portal and learn what is and isn’t working and then build off of that with surveys and conversations with our B2B customers to learn what is working and what isn’t.
Ellen Bennett:
Sometimes you don’t have the resources. Sometimes you don’t have the time. You have to find what works for your company. And perfect sometimes gets in the way of progress. So for B2B, we just said, let’s do a portal. It’ll be easier. It’ll help our sales team. A lot of our leads are inbound because people just love our products, so they reach out to us and we have a way to have them just buy straight from inventory without talking to someone.
Stephanie Postles:
That’s great. I always hate when it’s like contact us and we’ll let you know the pricing on things. I’m like, what if I just want to buy?
Ellen Bennett:
Exactly. And we got that feedback from our customers where they’re like, “hey, I have a restaurant I’m working all day. I don’t always have time, even though your staff is awesome. I don’t have time to wait for Kate to get back to me. I need to just order this and be done with it.” And so we thought, oh, okay, let’s just do this online and take it from there. So that’s how B2B has kind of evolved and began to stand on its own two feet next to D2C.
Stephanie Postles:
That’s cool. And do you allow for customization within that platform.
Ellen Bennett:
Offline, online that would have cost us a $100,000 to build that feature and I’m just not sure that we’re ready to make that commitment because we’re still on V1, but we’ll learn. We’ll learn and see how much demand we get. We have an entire ERP system offline that you can do customization within Hedley and Bennett, but you do have to talk to a sales rep.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah. That seems like a tricky place. I’m even thinking about companies like Swag.com which we’ve had on the show. And I’ve used them before and thinking about trying to even get this logo, I’m pointing to my hoodie that I’m wearing, like what’s hard for… And there was many times back and forth and it was a [inaudible] they were like Steph that’s like weirdly centered or that’s like too big. It was actually helpful having someone tell me, that looks crappy let us help you.
Ellen Bennett:
Yeah. So it is definitely merging an old school industry that required a lot of hand holding to optimizing it in ways where people are willing to make a few concessions because they want to ease or they want the speed and they’re like, “okay, fine. I won’t talk to Kate, but I’ll get to order it right now. Maybe I won’t get embroidery, but I’ll get the aprons by Monday.” And so you just have those trade-offs and people are willing to make them.
Stephanie Postles:
Yep. All right. And the last thing I want to talk about before we happen to the lightning round is your facility in LA it’s known, and it’s kind of famous for its features. I think I read it had tree houses or zip lines. And after meeting you now, I’m actually not surprised at all, but tell me a little bit about how you thought about building your facility in LA and why you built it that way.
Ellen Bennett:
Yeah. So when we got the factory, about six years ago, it was an awful giant, ugly, ugly building. And my team thought she’s lost it. What are we doing here in the middle of Vernon and next to downtown LA. So I thought, “no, guys, we’re going to build a kitchen and we’re going to add a zip line and there’s going to be a slide and just tree houses, and it’s going to be amazing and everything’s going to be done here.” None of that existed in the building, but I had a vision of how I wanted it to be.
Ellen Bennett:
And sure enough, we now have all of those pieces in here. And we teamed up with Samsung and built this gorgeous kitchen where we’ve hosted a lot of events. And it’s been a really wild evolution of Hedley and Bennett going from this very chef oriented company to now this very home cook oriented business with so many more customers than just our restaurant customers. But at the heart of it, it’s still a kitchen. And in our factory, the kitchen still brings our B2B and our D2C customers together.
Ellen Bennett:
Now we shoot videos for TikTok and social media and Instagram out of that kitchen. Yet we also used to host cookbook events for a chef that was launching a book. So kitchen is at our heart, no matter what we do and Hedley and Bennett land, whether it’s B2B or D2C it will always be connected to that core which is empowering and inspiring people to cook.
Stephanie Postles:
That’s awesome. Yeah. And such a good reminder too, of how to really get the most use of a space. So many people buy it for just one little small purpose and then when that purpose is gone, they’re like, “oh, shoot, I shouldn’t have maybe gotten that retail location,” but for you, it’s like you’re using it for social, and video and events, which hopefully will come back soon. So yeah [inaudible].
Ellen Bennett:
Yeah, exactly. I think that’s in Hedley and Bennett’s DNA. We’re all about multi-use, being resourceful and having everything have a dual function. Our aprons are not just for chefs they’re also for home cooks, they are for potters and painters and designers can wear them to protect their clothes. So it’s kind of for everyone, but built specifically with chefs in mind.
Stephanie Postles:
Awesome. All right, well, let’s move over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I’m going to ask a question and you have 30 seconds or less now to answer.
Ellen Bennett:
Okay.
Stephanie Postles:
All right. First one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?
Ellen Bennett:
Ooh. The one thing in e-commerce. It’s such a cliche word, but it’s the truth. I do believe that authenticity and brands that are real brands, not just pretty packaging and then you get a shitty product inside the pretty packaging. I believe those are the brands that will survive. There are people that care about what they’re actually making and they believe in that product having longevity in life and more than just one click and then your customer is upset because they bamboozled. So, quality and authenticity in the products that you are making are always going to be important in e-com. Next year and the year after.
Stephanie Postles:
Yes. I love that. What’s the nicest thing anyone’s ever done for you?
Ellen Bennett:
Every person that has said yes and no to me has always… I believe all the yeses and nos that I’ve ever gotten have been the nicest thing that I’ve ever gotten because they’ve opened and shut different doors along the way that have forced me to be resourceful. That have forced me to experience hardship and have forced me to experience amazing feelings. And when you have a robust set of life experiences, you can tackle more things, never think about, oh my God, woe is me. This happened to me. It’s like, hell yes, that you got through that. And that you now have that notch on your life belt of experience. And I believe you got to live life and feel life and go through the ups and the downs of it to come out on the other side with that much more context. And then you have that much more to pull from.
Stephanie Postles:
[inaudible]. That is a good one. That’s one of my favorite answer so far. What’s up next on your reading list?Ellen Bennett:
My book.
Stephanie Postles:
Tell me about it.
Ellen Bennett:
I wrote a book. It took me two and a half years and it launches in April.
Stephanie Postles:
Interesting.
Ellen Bennett:
Yes, it launches with Penguin Random House and it’s called “Dream First Details Later: How to Quit Overthinking and Make It Happen.”
Stephanie Postles:
[inaudible].Ellen Bennett:
That’s high up on my reading list. Also, I’m obsessed with the entire series of Lencioni books.
Stephanie Postles:
Okay. I actually don’t know what that is.
Ellen Bennett:
It’s very nerdy, but it’s like “The Five Dysfunctions of a Team,” “Death by Meetings,” “The Advantage.”
Stephanie Postles:
Oh, got it.
Ellen Bennett:
They’re all these story telling books that are about business and they’re digestible and easy read. So I make my entire leadership team read all of them when they join.
Stephanie Postles:
That’s good. And I can’t wait to read your book that also sounds really good. What’s your favorite e-commerce tool that you’re experimenting with right now or you’re having success with?
Ellen Bennett:
So it’s not directly e-comm, but it really helps it. And it’s called Dash Hudson. And it is a really incredible social media tool that drives a ton of data and analytics and helps show your team how much… We have a hard time figuring out how much traffic is being driven from social and where and how many purchases are coming from it. So this has given us a heavy dose of visibility. You’re more empowered if you have more data and you can track things. So I really love Dash Hudson.
Stephanie Postles:
Cool. I have to check that one out. All right. Ellen, well, it’s been a blast having you on, obviously you’re super fun. Your company is amazing. Where can people find out more about you and Hedley and Bennett?
Ellen Bennett:
Yes. They have to go to our website, www.hedleyandbennett.com. And that’s H-E-D-L-E-Y. And then our Instagram and our TikTok is also Hedley and Bennett. And my personal account is Ellen Marie Bennett. Our TikTok is highly amazing and packed with great videos about tips and tricks for the kitchen and how to just make you a bad-ass when you’re cooking, whether you like cooking or not. So go follow all of them. And I have a pet pig that’s 200 pounds.
Stephanie Postles:
That’s enough of a reason [inaudible].
Ellen Bennett:
That one’s on Ellen Marie Bennett. So just go join our wild world on the internet and say hi and say you heard me on this podcast. And thank you so much for having me, Stephanie. This was so much fun.
Stephanie Postles:
Yeah, I agree. We’ll have to have you back and then maybe you’ll bring your pet pig and we’ll call it like a round table with your pet. That’s great.
Ellen Bennett:
With Oliver.
Stephanie Postles:
Oliver, that’s my son’s name, how perfect [crosstalk].
Ellen Bennett:
Oh, my Gosh. Amazing.
Stephanie Postles:
All right. Thank you so much, Ellen.
Ellen Bennett:
Thank you.
