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In this digitally-native world, it might be surprising to learn that an old-school marketing tool is actually one of the most effective customer acquisition and retention tools.
On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Renee Lopes Halvorsen, the VP of Marketing & Ecommerce at Marine Layer, joined us to dive deep into the merits of catalog marketing. Renee cut her teeth in the marketing, eCommerce and omnichannel world at the Gap and Athleta. Now she is guiding the team at Marine Layer using a data-driven and blended approach to marketing that has led to profitable customer acquisition, high lifetime customer value and retention, and a fully engaged customer base that is coming to stores with more buying intent than ever. How is she doing it? Find out on this episode.
Key Takeaways:
- Long-term vision is key: You can spend a lot of time and money on the “cheap thrills” of marketing promotions, but those customers will never repeat buy. Instead, focus on retention and getting those high-value customers.
- Catalog Crazy: There are certain page and product count requirements that will determine whether or not a catalog is the right tool for a company. When those numbers are met, though, there are few better avenues to tell your brand story and drive conversions… and it may even perform in ways that an Instagram ad never could
- The cost to acquire customers: There is a high amount of risk involved when you acquire customers at a loss. You can predict customer behavior pretty accurately in the short term, but predicting long-term trends and purchasing is much more difficult. Therefore, it may not benefit you to model out a one-or two-year strategy toward profitability when it comes to customer acquisition.
For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.
Key Quotes:
“People think of [a catalog] as being super old school. But when I look at what’s happening, on sites like Facebook, or within digital marketing generally, it’s the same things that the catalog industry has been doing for 30 years.”
“You might have to spend a little bit more on marketing, spend more on brand, but what you end up driving is really high rates of retention. I think it makes your business a lot more predictable, and healthy in the long term.”
“When you’re focusing on discounting, it’s pretty easy to focus on what was the comp over last week, or how many units have been moved through? But when you’re focusing on long-term premium brands, you’re really focusing on was it incremental? Could I have gotten more in the long-term if I’d done it differently? What was the impact-to-customer LTV? What’s the quality of customer that I’m bringing into my brand?”
“For Marine Layer, we won’t do a lot of promotions in the acquisition stage because it’s been proven for us that if you bring in a customer on a lower price point item, or a lower overall transaction, or just a bigger discount, those buyers won’t repeat buy from you. So, basically, you’ve wasted that unit in selling to them on their first transaction on a buyer that’s not going to be a big part of our brand a year from now. That definitely changes the marketing channels that you’re looking at, and also changes the way that you measure them.”
“We want you to feel like our brand is maybe an old friend of yours, or it’s a comfortable place to be. It’s in every single tiny touch point. The models that we use, how we style them, the copy that we write for our shirts, it’s not going to be just a bunch of bullet points with the fiber makeup of the shirt. It’s going to be describing what you could put in the pocket, or where we used to wear this shirt, or what it was inspired by.”
“We don’t want to do a sale and have it just be a sale. The lead story can’t just be 70% off…There has to be a story behind it.”
“I don’t think the creative cost needs to be super big. It’s more about making sure that you have the breadth of assortment to support a catalog. In order to send something meaty out there that’s really going to drive results, you want to send out at least a 44-page catalog and you probably want about 100 different styles that you want to market in there.”
“People that you bring into the brand on catalog tend to be a lot more productive in the long run. So, they’re much, much healthier buyers than somebody that we may acquire through an Instagram ad.”
“Catalogs are definitely less nimble, which is frustrating for a lot of new-age DTC folks. You have to send your catalog, create it about a month in advance, and you can’t always control exactly when it gets in home. What can also be frustrating is that you can try to get it right in the catalog creative, and then when the catalog gets in-home, maybe you’re sold out of a certain item, or you didn’t get something, you have to pre-sell something because it’s not actually available when you thought it was going to be available. All those little things can really impact catalog performance. And I think with digital marketing, you can be super nimble. If the item is not in stock, you just don’t market that item.”
“We don’t acquire customers at a loss. We focus on being profitable upon acquisition or zero-to-positive-dollars coming in on the first transaction…. I’m not an advocate for one year to two-year time periods. I just think there’s too much risk involved.”
Mentions:
Bio:
Renee Lopes Halvorsen is the VP of Marketing and eCommerce at Marine Layer. Prior to Marine Layer, Renee spent almost four years at Athleta, where she served as Manager of Strategy and Analytics and advised marketing spend to increase long-term customer value. Before that, she worked in various roles at the Gap, Inc. and Banana Republic.
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Transcript:
Stephanie:
Welcome everybody to Up Next in Commerce, the number one show for all things eCommerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles. And today, we’re chatting with Renee Lopes Halvorsen, the VP of Marketing and Ecommerce at Marine Layer. Renee, welcome to the show.
Renee:
Hey, Stephanie, how’s it going?
Stephanie:
It’s going well. Yeah, excited to have you on.
Renee:
Yeah. I’m excited to be here too. This is my first podcast, but I’m an avid podcast consumer. So, I’m excited about this.
Stephanie:
Oh, we are very eager to have your first. So, I saw that you have a very interesting background of working at some good name brands, and I was hoping we could start there where you tell me a little bit about some of the previous work that you’ve done, and what brought you to Marine Layer?
Renee:
So, I’ve been at Marine Layer now for about five years. But about before that, I spent eight years at Gap Inc. I graduated college and like a lot of my peers, thought it would be a good idea to get into investment banking. But then about a year and a half of that, I was like, “What am I doing with my life? This is exhausting, and I’m not particularly interested.”
Renee:
I think I was working on a petrochemical deal at one point. So, I wanted to join a company I was excited about and I found Gap. They were hiring in San Francisco. And Gap is amazing because I think they give you a lot of opportunity at the entry level to move around in the organization. So, I feel like I really got a rad retail background experience in all things.
Renee:
I started in real estate finance, and then I was able to join a corporate strategy team, where we were really looking at international expansion opportunities for Gap Inc and acquisition opportunities. And then, after about a year and a half of that, Gap Inc had just acquired Athleta brand. And I was a female athlete in college, always a huge advocate of women in sports.
Renee:
So, really wanted to join their team in whatever capacity I could get my way into the organization. And they were hiring in marketing strategy, which was ended up being perfect for me. Because I think I have a real passion for business analytics. But then, I also love just consumer trends, and consumer behavior, and just how those things roll up on a macro level.
Renee:
So, I joined the marketing strategy team. It was initially brought in to really look at a lot of the ways that Athleta was spending their marketing spend, and inform if they were overspending. I think Gap was particularly concerned about how much I thought it was spending on their catalog. So, they wanted more of an objective strategy team to look at that investment, and prove out that it was really driving incremental demand.
Renee:
And it ended up just being like the most incredible experience. I spent close to five years there, and started looking at the efficiency of catalogs to drive incremental demand. It ended up being when digital marketing was really taking off as an acquisition channel, and retention channel. So, spent a lot of time also weigh out what’s a stronger growth tool catalog, or digital marketing.
Renee:
I was there and they’re opening up a lot of their stores. So, I was thinking a lot about omni channel, customer health. So, love that job. And I think after spending a little while, it’s like, “Gosh, I want to take all this newfound knowledge, and apply it to somewhere that’s in a younger growth stage.” And ended up meeting the CEO of Marine Layer, we hit off.
Renee:
He told me that he really wanted to start a catalog, and I was like, “Gosh, I think I’m probably one of the youngest people in our industry that knows a lot about catalog.”
Stephanie:
Yeah. I haven’t actually heard that term in any of the interviews referencing at catalog.
Renee:
Oh, yeah, it’s funny. It’s like an offline way to really do customer look alike modeling. I think people think of it as super old school. But when I look at what’s happening, like on Facebook, or within digital marketing generally, it’s the same things that the catalog industry has been doing for 30 years.
Stephanie:
How interesting.
Renee:
Yeah. It’s just like using customer LTV assumptions to inform how much you’re willing to spend to acquire a buyer. That’s the core principle that I think has been a part of catalog investing for 30 years. And I think now, that’s a huge part, that’s the biggest part of a digital marketing acquisition too.
Stephanie:
Okay, cool. So, what learnings did you take from Gap, especially around the catalog versus digital marketing, and bring to Marine Layer?
Renee:
I think my biggest takeaway was actually the importance of not being promotional. And the importance of being really focused on long-term customer health.
Renee:
It was like a stark contrast for me, I think working in the Gap, Banana Republic world, and then shifting over to the Athleta world where they had super, super high percentage of their transactions happening at full price. But I just think getting into a discount space, it’s a super slippery slope.
Renee:
And I think it was so exciting to watch within the Athleta environment that you might have to spend a little bit more on marketing, spend more on brand, but what you end up driving is really high rates of retention. I think it makes your business a lot more predictable, and healthy in the long term. So, it’s super high level, it’s focusing on long term brand health versus finding those cheap thrills with little promotions here or there.
Stephanie:
Yeah. When you joined Marine Layer, did you have to shift your thinking because I’m thinking the people who are at Gap or the consumers of Gap are maybe different than Athleta versus Marine Layer? Have you seen different buying profiles, and ways to connect with that audience, and get people to buy full price?
Renee:
So, Athleta and Marine Layer actually were more similar, but definitely Athleta and the other brands, I think are super different. The AOVs are pretty similar for Athleta and Marine Layer. I think the other category tends to be a really big driver of retention. So, it’s known in our industry that if you are a bottoms-focused purveyor that you generally have a higher retention rate.
Renee:
I think that’s what it benefits from being a bottoms-focused activewear brand. So, the retention rate is a little higher than what I was expecting coming into Marine Layer.
Stephanie:
How did you shift, yeah, when the consumer is may be different. Marine Layer and Athleta, you’re saying are similar. Versus Gap, maybe they are used to sales and things like that. How do you shift your strategies and your learnings that you took from those two brands to Marine Layer?
Renee:
Yeah, okay. Absolutely. So, I think it’s really around how you focus on measurement of your marketing channels. I think when you’re focusing on discounting, it’s pretty easy to focus on what was the comp over last week, or how many units have been moved through? But I think when you’re focusing on long-term premium brands, you’re really focusing on was it incremental?
Renee:
Could I have gotten more in the long term if I’d done it differently? What was the impact to customer LTV? What’s the quality of customer that I’m bringing into my brand? I guess a big difference is that for Marine Layer, we won’t do a lot of promotions in the acquisition stage. Because it’s been proven for us that if you bring in a customer, or a lower price point item, or a lower overall transaction, or just a bigger discount.
Renee:
Those buyers won’t repeat buy from you. So, basically, you’ve wasted that unit in selling to them on their first transaction on a buyer that’s not going to be a big part of our brand a year from now. So, it definitely changes the marketing channels that you’re looking at, and also changes the way that you measure them.
Stephanie:
That’s a really good point about not showcasing maybe, like here’s our discount $3 item, and then wondering like, “Oh, hey, why didn’t they come back and repeat buyer, or where’d they go?” That’s a really good point.
Renee:
Yeah. And even more recently, we’ve been having a lot of internal conversations on whether or not we should be selling our cloth face coverings in digital acquisition tools. So, you’re probably seeing there had been a lot of brands out there that are including them in the way that they’re trying to bring in customers to their brand. Our face coverings as a company are very reasonably priced.
Renee:
We’re doing them more as a service than a real growth driver for our business. So, I think if we put them on our paid social channels, and use them to acquire buyers, I’m sure it would get a lot of acquisitions. But I just don’t know how healthy those acquisitions are a year from now. I don’t know if they’re going to be buying from us in 2021 and 2022.
Stephanie:
Yeah. That long term vision. So, well, maybe before I keep having you dive deeper and deeper, it’d be good to have you tell people who don’t know what is Marine Layer and what is your role? What is your day-to-day at Marine Layer?
Renee:
Yeah, absolutely. I get so excited talking about marketing. It’s easy to forget the high-level stuff.
Stephanie:
Oh, me too. I was great after 1,000 more questions in the week. I’m like, “Oh, wait, we probably should talk about the brand first so everyone knows what you do.”
Renee:
Totally. So, I’m the VP of Marketing and Ecommerce for Marine Layer. I joined the company five years ago as our Director of Ecommerce because Marine Layer was actually, it’s a DTC emerging DTC brand, but grew at store base faster than it grew its Ecommerce business. When I joined in 2015, we had 10 stores. Now, we have 45.
Renee:
And really, our online channel was considered something to help with replenishment for people that were acquired in store, and then they wanted to buy it again online. So, I think that’s where my role started. Over time, we just started building out these new marketing channels to drive online growth separate from the retail channel.
Renee:
So, my responsibility started to include more and more marketing functions. And then, more recently, I’ve started also leading our creative and brand teams, which I really, really loved doing because I think there’s so much value in finding good tension between big brand ideas, and then long-term health of brand, and near-term sales goals.
Renee:
I guess zooming out again, Marine Layer is a casual clothing apparel brand. We are based in San Francisco. Our company was founded in 2010 because our CEO, his girlfriend threw out his favorite shirt, and he set out to recreate that incredibly soft, broken in shirt. And he did that. So, it was really founded on the best ever men’s t shirts. Our shirts are just absolutely absurdly soft when you touch them. They make a wreath-
Stephanie:
Yes. I can vouch for that.
Renee:
That’s awesome. And then, he started expanding the assortment for men’s beyond t-shirts. And then, I want to say a few years later than that, he started expanding into women’s shirts. It’s definitely more of a tops focused business than bottoms. Although now, we have some really strong business in women’s bottoms in particular.
Renee:
But now, it’s a full assortment of California casual. We really focus on making everything comfortable, soft. We want it to be your favorite. We talked about the importance of it being like a top of the stack t-shirt, the go-to item that you go for. You’re looking for it when it’s coming out of the dryer because you want to wear it even though you have other ones in your closet.
Renee:
So, there’s a lot of intention, and love, and care that goes into every single item of clothing that we make, whether it’s a dress, or a t-shirt, or outerwear. It’s really just around creating timeless, emotional, comfortable pieces.
Stephanie:
That’s great. So, how do you convey that messaging on your website about how soft the fabric is? What techniques do you use? Especially, since you just got into helping tell the brand story, and the product stories, and all that. What are you finding works when it comes to talking about something that ultimately, it’d be nice to touch before you buy it? But if you can’t do that, how are you conveying that message?
Renee:
So, lots of little ways. I’d also just definitely say that this is something we’re always working on improving as the technology changes a little bit online. I think for us, it’s communicating that our stuff is special, and that it has a fun, emotional connection to your stuff. It’s not just any old t-shirt. We want you to feel like our brand is maybe an old friend of yours, or it’s a comfortable place to be.
Renee:
So, it’s in every single tiny touch point. The models that we use, how we style them, the copy that we write for our shirts, it’s not going to be just like a bunch of bullet points with the fiber makeup of the shirt. It’s going to be describing what you could put in the pocket, or where we used to wear this shirt, or what it was inspired by. Our model notes I think will be like so and so is a size medium, and 5’10”, but he also plays in a band on the weekends. It’s really. I think-
Stephanie:
That’s right.
Renee:
And bringing the product to life in a way that feels unexpected, but then at the same time, just familiar and fun.
Stephanie:
I love that.
Renee:
Yeah. I think we’d like to play with more ways to test video on our site to really convey softness. And then, the other thing I would just say is that I think our store experience is a really big part of our brand experience. And I do think it’s what makes our site so successful. Our best customers, this is true everywhere, but are the customers that shop online, and in store.
Renee:
And I think it’s because those customers have the benefit of touching our stuff, interacting with like, are extremely friendly, and mellow store associates, and they understand what’s special about it, even without the context of the site. And yeah, and then I’d also just add that it’s another reason why I love catalog marketing.
Renee:
Because it just gives us more space to express the fun of our brand, and show off our lifestyle beyond just what you see in a flatter online experience. We love just shooting and fun inspirational locations. Our copy, I think is so funny and on point. I always love when I read the first draft of catalogs coming through that they can just make me smile. So, yeah, it’s a multitouch approach to really bring that softness to life, even if you’re not in store.
Stephanie:
That’s great. Yeah. I definitely am in the same camp that if copy makes me smile.
Renee:
Yeah. Shopping should be fun. I think that’s a big part of what guides our store experience and our site experience. We don’t want to over iterate on it. We don’t need to be the most innovative provider out there. We just want it to be fun, and make you smile where we can, just bring a little bit more joy into your life. Not in a cheesy way, but just an honest, approachable, fun way.
Stephanie:
Yep. Yeah. I think Trader Joe’s does a really good job too with the pamphlets they send out.
Renee:
Totally.
Stephanie:
And I’ve either read them, but they have really good copy in them. And you also learn something, and you’re smiling throughout it, and you’re like, “Oh, I want to buy that bag of plantain chips also.”
Renee:
Yeah. And I think it makes a lasting impression. When you’re thinking about where you’re going to go shopping, you’re like, “Gosh, I guess I’ll go to Trader Joe’s.” We think really intentionally about our promotions that way too. We don’t want to do a sale and have it just be a sale. The lead story can’t just be 70% off, although we would never go that deep, or even 20% off.
Renee:
There has to be a story behind it. Is it a funny story about a dad joke if it’s a father’s day story, or is it like, “Oh my gosh, my favorite promotions we ever did was when there was a blackout in San Francisco.” Probably like, I think we all woke up that day, and nobody had any power. And we all came into the office, terrible shower situations, looking terrible.
Renee:
And we’re like, “Let’s just do a blackout sale, a sale until the lights come back on.” And I think there’s a shared experience that you have with your customer. And it makes your content just more memorable and honestly, I think people are more likely to participate with a smile on their face.
Stephanie:
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. So, we mentioned catalogs earlier, but I want to dive a little bit deeper, because like I said, you’re the first one who’s come on the show who’s really mentioned it, and talked about this. And I’d love to hear about how you think about brands, should they or should they not have a catalog? How do you measure performance, and how do you think about that as one of your acquisition or marketing channels?
Renee:
Yeah. Great, I love talking about catalog, so we can do this all day. I think it’s a real great way to drive the story of a brand lifestyle. So, I feel like that lets you know right off the bat. It’s not just a product, if we’re just talking about a couple of skews that we’re building on top of, then I think it’s hard to pull together a catalog.
Renee:
But if you have an assortment of over 100 items, and there’s a lifestyle component that you’re trying to celebrate, then I feel like there might be good space for you to test into a catalog. I think it can also seem super intimidating from a cost standpoint, but there’s ways to pull together photoshoots in a super scrappy way.
Renee:
Gosh, I think the first catalog Marine Layer I ever sent out, we use models that were good friends of the brand, and we shot locally, I think in the woods outside of Calistoga. So, it doesn’t-
Stephanie:
Great.
Renee:
Yeah. When I was at Athleta, the budgets that we had for catalog content were much, much bigger than the type of stuff that we do for Marine Layer. Although, we have definitely professionalized our setup a little bit more. So, I don’t think the creative cost needs to be super big. It’s more about making sure that you have the breadth of assortment to support a catalog.
Renee:
And I think in order to send something meaty out there that’s really going to drive results, you want to send out at least a 44-page catalog. So, that’s where I’m getting to, like you probably want about 100 different styles that you want to market in there. So, yeah, we started mailing catalogs in 2015. And our books are about 44 pages.
Renee:
And now, our assortment has grown, and so as our catalog page counts, and also our catalog meal frequency, and I think what’s really powerful about them is, again, just making that lasting impression on a customer about who you are, and what you stand for, and the breadth of assortment that you make. I think people really knew Marine Layer as a t-shirt brand and the catalog, especially for online buyers.
Renee:
And even now, people that maybe buy their first product off of Instagram or something like that, and it’s just one item. It just shows them how much more we do, and what we’re excited about. I think-
Stephanie:
That’s great.
Renee:
They’re also very easy to overlook, as I’m sure once people start sniffing around at the cost per piece, and the CPAs associated with catalogs, they’re not cheap. But what I found at Athleta, and definitely at Marine Layer is that people that you bring into the brand on catalog tend to be a lot more productive in the long run. So, they’re much, much healthier buyers than somebody that we may be acquire through an Instagram ad.
Stephanie:
Very cool. So, what is the average CPA to expect if someone were to start a catalog, and how do you track that incrementality, and ROI on that?
Renee:
It’s going to vary for so many different reasons, but gosh, I feel like anywhere between a $70 CPA to $100 CPA would make a lot of sense. I feel like people are always so fascinated by how you do catalog tracking. I always get questions like do you just track all the orders that come in through the phone?
Stephanie:
Oh, my gosh, I wasn’t going to ask that. I’m interested in tracking, but I wasn’t like, “Are you talking to people on the phone?”
Renee:
No, no, no. No one is calling in to place orders. A couple of people do per season, but it’s not like you’re getting tons and tons of people calling in to place orders. It’s more about like you’re in the catalog match back process. So, you will know who you mailed your catalog to. And then, you can use third party providers to help you understand with all of the orders that were placed in the last two to four weeks when the catalog got in home.
Renee:
How many of them matched back to somebody who received a catalog? And then, I think beyond that, once you start mailing a little bit, people can start to ask, well did these people place an order because they received a catalog, or because I launched this new collection? And then, I think you can start to holdout testing to see for the folks that mailed a catalog versus didn’t mail a catalog, how powerful was the catalog for driving new demand?
Renee:
So, all those things are things that you can do to measure performance. But in my experience, I think and in talking to other industry professionals, usually the first time you mail a catalog, you feel it. Your business was operating at a certain level for the last four weeks, and then all of a sudden, it’s operating a different level for the next couple of weeks. So, that’s good.
Stephanie:
Are you mailing catalogs to only current customers, or are you also doing people who’ve never bought before?
Renee:
So, we do a mix, and we do to new customers, and to existing buyers. As an existing buyer, I think it’s a really good retention tool. And it was exciting, we’ve been measuring CLV for a while now. It’s like you see the CLV of our brand for the average customers brought into our company. And then, when that catalog started getting mailed in June 2015, it just moves up, and then it starts at a new baseline.
Renee:
So, I definitely feel like it shifts our retention of our buyers. And then, we also do it for customer acquisition. So, we work with data co-ops, where we can rent names. So, we never actually take possession of those names. I don’t know who I’m mailing, but I just know that I’m mailing customers that look like my customers.
Stephanie:
Very cool. Yeah, that’s great. When it comes to performance, if a lot of people come in, and they have their digital marketing hat on, and you’re talking about catalogs, how should someone level set expectations for here’s the type of performance and ROI you can expect with catalogs versus digital marketing? How do you level set that?
Renee:
Yeah. I think we look at the CPA-LTV ratio. So, over a three-month time period, or a six-month time period, or a year. So, even though your CPAs are going to be higher for your catalog and for your digital acquisition business, I would expect that your LTVs will be a lot higher too. So, for us, the ratio ends up working out the same, or in a lot of years, sometimes even the ratio is a little higher for catalog.
Stephanie:
Got it.
Renee:
The complexity of catalog too that I just want to throw out there is definitely less nimble, which is, I think, frustrating for a lot of new age DTC folks. You have to send your catalog, create it about a month in advance, and you can’t always control exactly when it gets in home. If there’s a tornado, then the post office is going to mail it to certain post offices across the country.
Renee:
And so, I think what can be frustrating is that you can try to get it right in the catalog creative, and then when the catalog gets in home, maybe you’re sold out of a certain item, or you didn’t get something, you have to presell something because it’s not actually available when you thought it was going to be available.
Renee:
All those little things that are hard, like those bigger moving pieces, they can really impact catalog performance. And I think with digital marketing, you can be just like super nimble. If the item is not in stock, you just don’t market that item. Pros and cons to both.
Stephanie:
Yeah. That makes sense. So, in our research, I saw that customer lifetime value is your number one metric. And I was wondering, are you willing to acquire customers at a lost? And if so, how much are you willing to take on?
Renee:
So, we don’t acquire customers at a loss. We focus on being profitable upon acquisition, or I’m sorry, being profitable upon acquisition, or zero to positive dollars coming in on the first transaction. That’s changed over the last couple of years. I think in some years, we’ve let it get up to about a zero to six-month profitability time window.
Renee:
So, we expect to be back in black, six months after customers are acquired, I’m not an advocate for one year to two-year time periods. I just think there’s too much risk involved. I have a pretty good idea what’s going to happen in the next six months, and customers can be pretty predictable. But to focus on those longer time horizons, I don’t know.
Renee:
That’s just never really been my appetite for risk, or my company’s appetite for risk. But I really feel like that decision is just a super specific decision made for every company based on where they are in their growth stage, and what access to capital they have. I think it’s changed For Marine Layer.
Renee:
And I think it’s fun for me now that we’re focusing on being profitable on acquisition or better because I can take those dollars that we’re getting at the first acquisition, and I can invest them in new tools, or I can invest them in improving our brand. And so, it feels like a healthier ecosystem for us to operate in.
Stephanie:
Yep. Yeah. I completely agree. It seems like a better approach, especially with everything that’s going on right now.
Renee:
Oh, my gosh, I know.
Stephanie:
It’s hard to predict going to happen next month, which makes me want to ask the question, how are you guys moving forward in this COVID environment? You were mentioning retail locations before, what’s changing, and what are some things that you’re doing differently going forward?
Renee:
Yeah, gosh. It’s so funny because recently as a leadership team, we were looking back at our goals for the beginning of the year, and asked to rethink those, given that everything’s changed. And the one that stood out to me that makes me laugh now is I had some goals around doing bigger campaign marketing planning. We’re a really scrappy organization.
Renee:
And sometimes in January of this year, I thought we were almost too good at whipping things into shape last minute, and reworking copy, or reworking direction of campaign really close to the finish line, to the point where it inhibited our ability to tell bigger stories across more marketing channels. But now, I’m like, “Oh, my goodness, it’s an awesome value and strength to have to be really, really nimble.”
Renee:
Our big change for us during COVID is that we’re really reviewing all of our emails, really close to when they get sent. We’re not trying to create content on a Monday and send it on a Thursday. We might create a first draft or something on a Monday, but we’ll keep reviewing it and make sure that the voice, and tone, and products that we’re featuring all mix in up until a few hours before final send time.
Renee:
So, we’re definitely just reviewing content, and we’re also talking to our customers more frequently. I think in March, when everything was changing so quickly, and also our business was seeing a lot more softness, as I think COVID was becoming a huge, huge, huge reality. And the change was we were experiencing it personally, and our customers were experiencing it.
Renee:
There were moments when it just felt like you were paralyzed into not wanting to do anything, not wanting to send an email because you weren’t sure what to say, or not wanting to post on social because you didn’t know what to say.
Stephanie:
Yeah. I saw so many articles about that too, like how should your brand discuss COVID, and it’s tricky because you can get in trouble for anything these days, and it feels hard to take a risk on any messaging, or yeah, move forward at all.
Renee:
Oh, totally. And I feel like I even had conversations with my CEO about pulling entire catalog mailings, and just like these very, very huge changes that weren’t just about the next couple of weeks, but longer-term stuff too. And what I think worked for my company is to just not stop, to keep moving in the dark room. There’s that metaphor when the lights go off, and you just stop.
Renee:
And we just didn’t do that. We forced ourselves to write the really hard email copy. And I think we used to have like me and my copywriter, and my CEO review copy. And instead, we invited the larger group to really help us think through what felt right. And that really helped. We started emailing more frequently.
Renee:
So, rather than sending emails two to three times a week, we started emailing four to five times a week. Just because it felt like rather than sending these huge, big, long stories, we could just tell these smaller-point-in-time stories, and just keep our finger on the pulse more often. And that seemed to really work for our customer.
Renee:
And then, I also think we just force ourselves to try new ideas that we’ve never tried before, and make them work. We ended up shooting a catalog entirely in studio because we couldn’t get outside. And it actually is one of my favorite catalogs we’ve ever created. So, it got-
Stephanie:
Oh, that’s great.
Renee:
… May of this year. And I feel like it just forced our creative team to just think differently about everything we were doing. And it was really raw and vulnerable. But it’s really awesome, and you see that it yields great content. And then, I’m also really proud for my company to speak up around Black Lives Matter. I think, as a company, we’ve definitely made it known that we’re more of a progressive organization.
Renee:
But I think never made such a bold statement around an issue that we are passionate about. And I honestly think that going through March, and just learning how to be honest, and real with each other, and connecting with our customers in the way that we did, it really made us feel more empowered that we should be making bold statements across our platform about things that we believe in.
Renee:
Especially, when it has to do with human rights. And so, it really helped us guide how we responded to the Black Lives Matter movement in organic, social, and email, and just what we’ve been doing as a brand.
Stephanie:
Yeah. That’s great. I like the idea of leaning into it not being scared to publish things. And just that we agree with that method of doing thing. So, are there any brands that you watched? Oh, go ahead.
Renee:
Oh, as I said, the other thing that I think we do now that we weren’t doing beforehand is, well, one, we use Slack all the time, which I love Slack. It’s funny to me that we are late to the game on that one. But the other thing I was going to say is that we actually have team meetings every single morning, and I feel like we over invite.
Renee:
When you’re in the office, I feel like we have a tendency to try to limit meeting attendance because sometimes meetings just explode. And then, you feel like they are becoming unproductive. And I feel like we’ve been taking the opposite approach during COVID. We have a 30-minute meeting with my entire team. And that includes customer service, to eCommerce channel managers, to somebody on our brand creative team, and our copywriter.
Renee:
And it just helps to just connect really quickly in the beginning of the day, and make sure that everybody has the same information starting point for what’s happening. I’m sure that there’s a lot of people that don’t need to be there, but I think it’s replicating that like water cooler environment, or that you’re walking, and making eye contact with somebody, or catching somebody in the bathroom. That’s made a big difference too.
Stephanie:
Do you think that you all will continue doing larger meetings like that? Because I agree, having people onboard so you’re not having to retell things, or having one person tell another person, tell another person, and the message is completely off. Do you think you’re going to continue doing things like that even after when we can return to offices?
Renee:
I hope so. I’m going to force them to have a meeting every morning when we get in. I think there is something really nice. I think we’ve actually come together. We support each other more. I also think like role clarity has solidified itself in a really strong way. And I think there’s not land grabbing around projects.
Renee:
Everyone is just super clear around who’s doing what, and there is no like, “Oh, I wish I was working on that, or I wish I could contribute to that.” It feels like there’s more support across team members to get projects done.
Stephanie:
Yeah, very cool. So, earlier, we were talking about acquiring customers, and you mentioned that you had a scrappy marketing team, or your marketing efforts are scrappy. And I wanted to dive into that a bit about how you’re acquiring your customers, and what channels you’re finding the most success in, and what that looks like behind the scenes?
Renee:
Sure. So, like team structure, or more just channels that we’re using or both?
Stephanie:
Yeah. I’d say channels, or marketing campaigns that are doing well, or how you think about setting that up to drive conversions, and new customers, and all that.
Renee:
Yeah. The last couple of months have been a weird time for everything. But I actually think for us, it’s actually meant not really focusing on new channels. I’m starting to do that a little bit more now. Poke my head up, and think about what I want to test, and do in 2021. But for us, it’s really been just focusing on things that we’re already good at, and just being really, really thoughtful about brand creative.
Renee:
So, the channels that have been most successful are paid social, Facebook, and Instagram, and catalog continues to be really successful for us. Usually, retail is an awesome channel for us to introduce ourselves to a lot of people. But our stores were closed for three months. So, obviously, that had a big impact on our business. But yeah, so those channels have been working for us.
Renee:
And then, we have a pretty scrappy team. We do all of our own in-house creative, which again, I think has been really helpful, and iterative, and making sure that we feel all of our content is on brand. Yeah.
Stephanie:
All right, cool. For the retail stores closing, are all of them opening back up, or is it making you rethink your retail strategy at all, or what’s your plans going forward with that?
Renee:
Yeah. I think, gosh, it changes every couple of days. I want to say 90% of our stores are opened. I think some of the stores in New York might still be closed, and I’m not sure when this air, so that might be different then. But for the most part, our stores are back open. We’ve been seeing that buyers are coming in, and even though our traffic is down, that buyers are coming in with a lot of intent.
Renee:
And we’re seeing much higher basket sizes, and much higher conversion. So, overall, I think positively encouraged by what we’re seeing in our retail channel around customer engagement through the pandemic. But I think what’s been really exciting, and maybe that’s the wrong word. I feel like nothing is really exciting. But when stores closed, I was nervous about how much we would lose the engagement from those buyers.
Renee:
Buyers that tend to participate in your retail channel, they do that for a reason. They’re people that really like to touch the stuff before they buy it. And so, I wasn’t really sure what to expect from those buyers in shifting their purchases to online, and how much, I call it retail migration, we would see. But for the most part, it’s been a lot higher than what I was expecting.
Renee:
So, I feel good that our higher contact strategy that we’ve had in the web channel, or the web marketing tools has helped us engage with all of our buyers, even if they’re traditionally retail buyers.
Stephanie:
Got it. Did you have different marketing strategies to keep those retail buyers engaged, and reaching out to them more, maybe not through email offerings, but direct mail or something like that?
Renee:
Not really. We talked about it a few times. But then I feel like, it’s hard to create so many different creative iterations. I think we just came from like, “Hey, it’s one customer out there. So, who are we talking to? We’re talking to all these people.” And I think what we’ve been talking about hasn’t really been channel specific. It’s more like Zeitgeist specific to everything that’s happening in the world. So, I think that’s worked for us.
Stephanie:
Cool. So, the one thing I was reading a bit about was something called the Re-Spun program. I was hoping you could talk a little bit about that because I was trying to think about how that model works, and the operating cost behind it, and all of that, and I was hoping you could touch on that a bit?
Renee:
Sure, I would love to. Re-Spun is a program that Marine Layer launched in November 2018, where we actually recycle old customer t-shirts into new tees and sweatshirts. And what’s cool about it is that we take any old shirt that our customers had, does not need to be a Marine Layer shirt. We give customers $5 per shirt of Marine Layer credit.
Renee:
And then, we’d take their old shirts, we’d break them down to pulpy fiber, and re-spin them into upcycled cotton. And we also blend that upcycled cotton with a little bit of recycled poly, and then use that new thread to make new shirts, and new sweatshirts that are still absurdly soft Marine Layer caliber product. But it’s actually being made from 100% either upcycled or recycled materials.
Renee:
It’s a cool program because I think it does a lot of things. One, it defers shirts from landfills. So, we’ve actually collected, this number is probably a little old Knox. It’s from January of this year, but over 170,000 shirts from our customers.
Stephanie:
Oh, wow.
Renee:
I think it’s fun that we get to reward them, and give them Marine Layer credit. But I also think it really solves a problem for a lot of people out there. If you go back to why Marine Layer was founded, it was because our CEO did not want to get rid of his old favorite shirt. He wanted to keep wearing it, and he loved it so much. And I think there really is an emotional attachment to your clothing.
Renee:
That’s what we try to do in every single piece that we create. And when you have an emotional attachment to something, it feels very sad to throw it away, or give it to Goodwill, and not really know what’s happening to it. So, I think when we introduced this program, we were honestly blown away by the interest in donating old shirts.
Renee:
And we’ve actually had a lot of fun even going through them because we processed them at our headquarters. Although, again, not so much now, but we should take a little break from that during COVID, just trying to make sure that we’re not getting old of those shirts from everywhere. But some of them are old sorority fun run shirts, but some of them are like, there’s really incredible stories behind the shirt.
Renee:
We’ve even reached out to some customers and shared that on our Instagram. We also did a contest just sharing the funniest shirt that we’ve received through this program. So, it’s a nice way to connect with our customers, and understand more about what their stories are behind their clothes. And then-
Stephanie:
That’s really fun.
Renee:
Yeah. And then, lastly, because I know this is an ecommerce-driven podcast. In some ways, we think about Re-Spun like our loyalty program. So, it’s our way of rewarding customers for sharing our values, and creating clothing in a more responsible way.
Renee:
I think overall, just the response to the program, that’s been just so awesome.
Renee:
We’re just trying to expand it in a much bigger way. So, I’m looking for ways to include recycled materials, not just in this small assortment of Re-Spun tees, and sweatshirts, but how do we include recycled materials in everything that we’re making. So, it’s been fun to focus on this value of making clothing more sustainably, and using more recycled materials, and applying it to our whole brand.
Stephanie:
Yeah. That’s amazing. So, to take a little step back into the world of eCommerce a bit more, and building actual websites, and all that stuff. What tools do you love using right now, or are you testing out, and you see them really working well with either not just customer acquisition, but conversions, or website performance? Anything in the nitty gritty that you’re like, “This is really working well for us?”
Renee:
I feel like it’s nothing.
Stephanie:
Feel free to go into the weeds.
Renee:
Yeah, I know. I’m trying to think. I feel like it’s nothing particularly new. Well, if we’ve been having more fun with email flows lately, and looking at the frequency at which we’re sending those, because it does seem that there’s just an overall appetite to hear from Marine Layer more often. So, we were not sending our abandoned cart emails until two days after.
Renee:
But now I think we’ve moved that up to a few hours later, trying to monitor and see what happens there. I think because we are sending emails more frequently too, looking for more ways to segment our email file so that we can tell, again, more specific messages to certain audiences. And yeah, I think it’s not really been not a lot of new in the last couple of months, it’s mostly been focused on looking what we’re doing, and seeing what we can make better.
Stephanie:
Yeah. What content are you sending if you’re sending emails more frequently? I’m guessing it can’t just be more product emails, or just the abandoned cart ones. I’m sure you’re sending some content that’s keeping the subscriber happy and engaged. How do you think about that when you’re sending more emails?
Renee:
Yeah. Some of it is just as simple as segmenting by product gender. So, focusing on sending men’s focused emails to people that tend to buy men’s product, and women’s focus emails to women’s product buyers. But then, I also think a lot of branded messages. I think one thing that I love that Marine Layer does, that I didn’t see happening as much out there is sometimes, we just send emails with no performance expectations against them.
Renee:
We send a really fun email, fun might be the funny adjective for it, but in March, where we just profiled what our employees were wearing while they were working from home, and-
Stephanie:
That’s fun.
Renee:
Yeah. It wasn’t even product that we are currently selling. We tried to focus on Marine Layer products, but our employees tend to have stuff from two or three years ago. So, we more just wanted to tell a story of being comfortable, and trying to find ease, and optimism wherever you are. Yeah. We also send that email usually around Father’s Day or Mother’s Day where we just like, “Oh, I love the Mother’s Day on this year actually.” We all sent in images of Facetiming with our moms.
Stephanie:
Oh, that’s cute.
Renee:
And just talked about like, “We miss you, mom, we love you.” And then, I think the Father’s Day when we did this year was just around taking vintage images of all of our super cool dad styles, and sharing them on our email, and through our Instagram. So, yeah, I think we’ve had more creative license, just send emails that are just fun, and emotional, and make us feel happy rather than feeling like they’re performance driven.
Stephanie:
Yeah, I love that. That’s really fun, and I will be signing up just to see those emails [inaudible 00:47:30].
Stephanie:
All right, cool. So, the lightning round is where I’ll ask a question, and you have a minute or less to answer, tan-tan-tan.
Renee:
Yes, I’m ready.
Stephanie:
So, this one I’m asking for our producer [Hilary] because she put it on the list. We heard you’re a Bachelor fan. So, who’s favorite bachelor or bachelorette?
Renee:
Oh, my God, that’s so funny. I love Kaitlyn Bristowe. I just love Kaitlyn Bristowe.
Stephanie:
She is the best.
Renee:
Yeah. I feel like she ushered in a new era of Bachelor viewers, and I love The Bachelor. But then I also really love this funny podcast called Here To Make Friends. And it’s like a feminist take on The Bachelor, and they rank episodes of things where feminist fails, and it’s fun. I used to have a lot of roommates, and we would all watch it together. And then I got married, and I didn’t have anyone else that would watch the show with me. So, now, I got to resort to podcasts.
Stephanie:
I love that. Well, then that’s a good transition to what’s your favorite podcast that you’re listening to?
Renee:
Ooh, that’s a really hard question. So, top of my head, I would say Radiolab and Fresh Air. Those are easy answers. But Fresh Air in particular, I love Terry Gross. I just think she asks such thoughtful questions. And I’m always surprised by the content that comes out of her interviews. And some of my favorite ones are with unexpected guests. If anyone hasn’t listened to the Jay-Z interview with Terry Gross, go and find it. I think it’s from 2013. It’s so funny. It’s so good.
Stephanie:
Oh, that sounds good. I have to check that one out.
Renee:
Yeah.
Stephanie:
What is your favorite learning tool or resource that you leverage along the way when it comes to running either marketing, or eCommerce, or something like that, where you’re like, I constantly think about this book, or this article, or this person? Who do you look to, or what do you look to?
Renee:
Definitely my time Athleta. I would say it’s more just the incredible coaches that I had at Athleta, and leaders that I had there that were just incredibly passionate about customer analytics, and customer health as a driver of long-term business health. I could list off folks, but Scott Key was our CEO. He’s incredible.
Renee:
Mike O’Reilly was our leadership for marketing and eCommerce. And Irene Wong, my boss at the time, just a really, really powerful, thoughtful team that cared so much about the success of Athleta, and wanted to just try looking at a new way. They still inspire me all the time.
Stephanie:
That’s amazing. What’s up next on your Netflix queue?
Renee:
Ooh, this is embarrassing, but I’m going to say it anyways. How adorable is Baby-Sitters Club? Is anybody else watching that?
Stephanie:
I have not watched that yet, but I will have to check it out. I’m down to watch that. Not embarrassing at all.
Renee:
Okay, good. I have a three-year-old little girl, and I watched Baby-Sitters Club, and it just gave me a little spark of optimism that maybe the world is going to be okay if there’s more 13-year-olds in the world that act like the Baby-Sitters Club. So, I’ll throw that out there, and then also, Expecting Amy. We’re two episodes in, and that’s pretty good.
Stephanie:
Yep. Yeah. That’s funny, too. What app do you have in your phone that you enjoy the most?
Renee:
This is going to be boring, but probably Google Analytics and Instagram.
Stephanie:
That’s all right. Hey, those are not boring. I love Google Analytics and Instagram. Of course, is great.
Renee:
Yeah. I have to hand it to Google Analytics. Their app is very functional. I like that you can do different comparison periods real time stuff, it’s helpful.
Stephanie:
Yeah. No, I completely agree. And then, the last one, if you were to create a Netflix original, what would it be about?
Renee:
Fun question. I have thought about this.
Stephanie:
Oh, wow. Okay.
Renee:
Well, I guess I feel I would like for there to be more stories about female professionals, and especially about female professionals that are comfortable being feminine and vulnerable, like Brene Brown take on what it’s like to be in a workforce now. And I feel like there’re podcasts that I think have done that really well that inspire me a lot.
Renee:
But I’d like to see that story told more. And I’m sick of stories about working mothers that are balancing their work life and their home. That’s too complicated and too much to unpack there. But there is a lot to tell about just this new era of vulnerable women in the workforce. And I think a lot of them are moms, and I am very inspired by that.
Stephanie:
Yeah. I would definitely watch that. Renee, it’s been such a fun interview. I loved how deep we get into a lot of things. And we will definitely have to have you back for round two. Where can people find out more about you and Marine Layer?
Renee:
marinelayer.com. So, that’s a pretty straightforward one, and then definitely come and visit our stores. And for me, I don’t know, send me a DM on Instagram. I’m @renielo, or you can send me an email at renee@marinelayer.com.
Stephanie:
Cool. It’s been a blast. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show.
Renee:
Okay. Thanks. It was great talking to you, too.
